Toronto Garbage Strike – What Do You Think?

I think our mayor is finding out the hard way what Bob Rae learned- union political support is great when you are in opposition but in power it is a double edged sword.

I would not legislate back to work since, in that case, you have to go to arbitration and arbitration is employee friendly (since they look at the last collective agreement signed- i.e. pre credit crunch- as a basis of comparison and decision making). I would see who blinks first.

I am working on a post on the same issue…

In Windsor, where we are now into the 12th week of a garbage strike, we are watching Toronto with some interest. Very few people thought it would go on this long, though most of us have found that driving our garbage to a private dump is really not very onerous. It’s much easier for us to hold out than it is for those picking up their weekly $200 in strike pay.

CUPE soon discovered (to their suprise, would be my guess) that most Windsorites do not back the strike, but they are too proud to back down easily at this point. I believe they expected to win the fight in Windsor, giving them a bigger bargaining chip in Toronto. That strategy seems to have backfired rather spectacularly.

With the highest unemployment rate in the country, it’s hard for Windsor’s shrinking tax base to understand the need for fully funded post retirement benefits – and it’s FUTURE workers they are talking about, not current ones. Especially when city employees enjoy higher wages than most privately employed people.

CUPE is learning the hard way that the economic climate is not conducive to winning disputes over non-value added post-retirement benefits, whether they be fully funded health care in Florida, or banked sick days.

Hey great post you seem to have covered it all here. The garbage is getting the headlines but so far it’s not too inconvenient for me really – I suggest dumping all the packaging you can at the supermarket when you shop. I feel worse for the people who have had to cancel daycare or weddings (!) which must really suck. I’m generally pretty pro-union thanks to being thoroughly indoctrinated by my NYC construction days but like anyone else I don’t know the ins and outs of the issues, not that this stops me from pontificating like everyone else!

I have a simple rule of when a union is necessary: If the union members make more that the average non-union worker, and they make almost as much or more money than management without the extra responsibility, there should no longer be a need for a union.

Places where unions could be good are Walmart and England at the beginning of the industrial revolution.

Anything critical or essential should not be unionized (good for Reagan to fire all the air traffic controllers, still one of the gutsiest reactions to a strike in history that didn’t involve blood). The 416 branch even has an exemption to the paramedics under its umbrella, so where the other employees are striking, the paramedics are provintially mandated to still provide service.

Brendan: I agree with part of your comment. My brother would often get comments about how cushy his job is, and his response would be: “Why don’t you apply? They’re hiring”. At which point the person would realize that they didn’t have the aptitude, interest or education to do what he does. As you say, instead of complaining about how good someone else has it at their job, switch to it and reap the benefits yourself.

I’d say this is a different situation, because the good people of Toronto are PAYING for their sweet salaries and benefits. It is completely reasonable for people who are paying the bills to complain when they’re too high. The choice whether to work a job is the employees’, the choice of what renumeration to offer is the employers’.

Further, unions often try to get public support (often harassing the public as you thankfully agree is wrong). Once the union drags the public into the discussion, you bet your sweet ass it’s fair for people to say how good they have it (the union is just hoping they can convince the public how BAD they have it, if they actually don’t, they need to be called on that).

I do agree with you, if the union isn’t involving the public and if the public isn’t paying the bills, there’s no point for people to rant about how good other people have it (but in this situation, how would the public even know?)

Public/private, it really doesn’t matter. If you think you are paying too much in taxes that pay for the services, you can move to another city. Another choice. I think some radio hosts are over paid, and I can always turn the radio off, but I still have to pay via products that I buy. I shop at store A who pays to advertise on said radio station with overpaid host. Advertising costs are passed on to the consumer.

I agree that as a tax payer you have the right to complain about things being too high. But, to dump on the workers is wrong. You feel the contract is too rich? Fine. Who signed it on the gov’t side? Vote him or her out next time.
I dont know about Toronto, but in Winnipeg people complain about taxes, and over paid workers, but they dont even go out and vote. Most winnipeggers cant even name their local school trustee, but complain when school taxes go up to pay for the “over paid teachers who get all summer off”.
Why do we tolerate a welfare class fully capable of working? Why do we pay punks millions of dollars to chase a frozen piece of rubber around a hockey rink?
Again, it is what it is. Pick something you would like to do for a living, and do it.
Not happy? Do something else.
Think a union got a pretty sweet deal? Sign up, or start attending council meetings, and vote a council that will not sign these deals.
This is a real sore spot for me. I put up with the occasional cheap shot about how “good I have it” (incidentally from people earning high salaries, and living in large 3000 sq ft homes, 2 benz’s in the driveway, etc). I am sure that i either directly or indirectly pay for their lifestyle somehow.
I feel this is unfair. I work hard, and feel that i provide a valuable service to the taxpayers I serve.

I think the real issue here is value for your dollar. I dont mind paying taxes, income, or property. It costs money to run a city and people do not work for free. So long as I am getting value for my money then i do not care.
Other than bash the lowly worker, there are other ways to cut costs. Thousands of capable people sit and collect cheques, and pump out child after child, at a huge costs to us all. Where is the outrage?
Another segment of our population that was here first, feels that we owe them, collect, and waste huge amounts of tax dollars, with no efforts being made to become self sufficient. Where is the outrage?
Let’s pick on the worker who also pays taxes, buys stuff, contributes to the economy, and maybe even coaches kids soccer.

Can’t we all just get along?

my points exactly. Either sit on welfare yourself or quit complaining. Marry them and get treaty rights, or quit complaining.
Get hired for that high paying union job, or quit complaining.

Unions did not extort sick time cash outs. They were negotiated fair and square in lieu of other wages or benefits.

It is what it is.

Pick something you like to do, and do it. Not happy? Do something else.

Mike, the private industry works the same way.
Tradsepeople make X amount of money. Calgary starts to pay more. People move to Calgary. Soon no workers left, and wages climb. People move back from Calgary.
Union or non union wages will be comparable across the country give or take.
Actually law works the same way. Precedent set, precedent followed.
Safety standards, same thing. What become the standard in one province, will soon become standard everywhere.

I dont have to book off today because it is my birthday and I get birthdays off with pay, as well as company supplied gum so I always have fresh breath.

Im from TO and Im a union member. Im using a friends computer and a fake name so I feel relatively ‘safe’ to say this: the union workers KNOW its mainly for bankable sick days as you call them but we were told to say ‘they’re trying to severely cut our benefits”. The worker who spoke to you was telling you the line. We have NO choice to oppose our union leaders and I’m ashamed to say that most of the members have a ‘gimmie gimmie’ attitude anyway. Its like grandpa simpson on the simpsons whenever they bring up government handouts for the elderly. The union is the same ‘gimmie!” I dont mind telling you this because Im sick of pretending we are fighting for something important. The union bigwigs are plenty angry but they also thankful that millar is such a ‘weakling’. He wants to think he is one of us. Its sad. I’m sure theyll be other union members on here who will curse me out. My reply: go f** yourself –Im tired of pretending we are right in this. We aren’t and you know it “brothers”.

PPS couldn’t resist: you know the 3% increase the fireman etc got. shhhh we just want it because we think we can get it. some of my fellow ‘brothers’ say we are like ‘fireman or police but for sanitation’ nice huh? you see unlike them I dont actually sniff the garbage I through in at the back of the truck. (recap to my fellow union bros: you know what you can go do)

In Philadelphia, its looking more and more like Septa (the transit system) is going to go on strike for a few reasons.

But most of the reasons have to do with a down economy (eg the city saying “We are slashing budgets on schools, closing libraries and fire departments, etc… we can’t afford to give you a raise.”). It makes me really mad at the Septa union, especially because they are using Septa’s surplus to attack them. Uh, I would like them to have a surplus to perform maintenance and cover unexpected expenses with something other than fare hikes.

Brendan, your arguments are absurd, I accept that the Unions have the ability (dare I say obligation) to negotiate whatever deal they can get. But I know of no other negotiation where, when one party doesn’t like the deal on the table it gets to shut the othe party down?! If the Union doesn’t like the deal they are being offered the city should be free to go and hire another group of people that will work for that package. But the idea that a Union can hold a business, or city hostage over terms belongs to a different age.

And despite your generous offer of employment, we can’t all work for the city….

Will the city refund its citizens portion of the the taxes earmarked for
garbage removal? This would only be fair!!!!

A thought….. as there is no contract in place at present why can’t the striking workers be fired and new ones be hired……..

@Tony: it’s easy to paint a picture of the strikers of amoral turds, but we’re the ones who voted in the system.
Unions really have only one tool, strike.
Normally the employers have an equally powerful tool: close up shop. Unfortunately the government does not really have that option so we end up with these stupid face-offs. (see my post above)

However, I have a difficult time blaming the workers for a situation that we, the taxpayers, have endorsed. If we did not want them to strike, we would have eliminated the unions long ago.

@Russ: I love your good old-fashioned Canadian passive-aggressiveness. I don’t see much of that here in the US 🙂

@Mike: I honestly don’t think we need to actually “fire” most of them (short of a legal “fire then re-sign”). Having dealt with quite a bit of government workers they’re already very well-paid and most of them have a healthy body of very domain-specific knowledge. We probably couldn’t replace a lot of them if we wanted to.

One could argue that some workers will get fired by tyrant managers once their Union protection dissolves, but I don’t expect that tyrant managers will feel significantly safer.

Honestly, I’d expect a smart “de-unionization” to have very few short-term effects (other than a bunch of ruffled feathers). Just business as normal for most. I think most of the changes will happen over time as the government slowly cleans out workers that shouldn’t be there and possibly finds a way to attract talent instead of security-seekers.

It would also allow some longer-term input into the standards of living we expect to provide workers.

Right now, city garbage workers are making well above median salary even before good benefits. The tech workers I met were well above market rates. I left a government gig b/c my consultant salary was lower than the people I was responsible for. This was at the provincial level, federal workers were making even more.

I used to work lifeguarding / instructing for the city, had friends doing wading pools. The pay was great in both cases. My wife worked the rec centers and enjoyed her job. Her salary was definitely livable even at entry-level.

On average, every government job I’ve worked (except the consulting) has paid above median/market wages for what they were doing.

I would expect such government jobs to be highly sought-after, but the Unionized structure has really turned people away. Having been there for a while it can definitely be soul-sucking.

I personally hope that removing that Union can entice those people who want to “get stuff done” rather than “put in their 36.25 hours”. That would benefit all of us.

“Either sit on welfare yourself or quit complaining. Marry them and get treaty rights, or quit complaining.”

Brendan, with all due respect, it seems to me that if everyone followed your line of reasoning, the economy as we know it would cease to function. As others have said, taxpayers are paying the bills and have every right to complain when they are not getting value for money.

If I don’t like the prices at store A, I shop at store B, but if only store A exists and provides something I need, I would definitely complain about unreasonable price increases.

Victor, I was complaining about welfare people (capable), and a certain “peoples” of Canada . I did not suggest going on welfare, or marrying a treaty person. Whoever quoted this was using my own logic for MY complaints.
I agree with tax payers expecting value for money. I am a taxpayer too.
My point is that you can vote different councillors in office. You can leave your city for lower taxes. You can even move into a smaller house to pay less taxes. Choice.
It’s all about choice.
I am sick of people blaming everyone else . “Fire them all!” “get rid of unions!”
“Cut my salary because customers want lower prices!!”, uhh wait a minute, no that’s not fair!
If you think 20% more is outlandish then quit your job and go work for 20% more. Why dump on someone else?
What is so wrong with wanting the most for ourselves, and our famillies?
We all do.

so we need to put up with the stike and support the city for as long as possible and make the union capitulate. Taxpayers should not pay 18 bankable sick days. The whole idea of bankable sick days is a scam and taxpayer abuse.

Wonderful banter from you all so far. Brendan you are a blast of wit.

I am a city worker, Cupe 79 for over 25 years now.
90% members 2000 voted for a strike. There is an approximate total of 18,000 members in my union. Do the math. Did majority rule on this one? Yet it appears we are ALL being subjected to comments bordering on hate mail, slander and ridicule.

1 day to vote on short notice, at only 1 location in the middle of no where in Scarborough, on a Sunday. Many of us work rotating shifts/7 days per week as well as families to take care of, etc. All levels of government offer more than 1 poling station. We are not afforded that luxury.

We the strikers are not enjoying this at all. Cupe 79 is a female dominated (no offence boys) union consisting of social workers, housing workers, hostel workers, public health staff, daycare workers, community outreach staff, parks staff to name only a few. We are the caretakers of the city, we fight and advocate for the less fortunate, the elderly, the ill and the young. Our jobs grew out of a social need many decades ago; mostly originating in the churches, hospitals, women’s volunteer organisations, etc. As our jobs were created to fulfill a need for caregivers; women at the time were the natural candidates. We many not have been able to vote at the time but we did the charity work anyway to help our communities.

And still to this day we spend everyday helping people that the rest of society would prefer to forget about. We try to help to make life more liveable for many of our citizens.

We advocate daily (til we lose our own sanity) to get more for the citizens in our society, yet only the elected and upper management get to make the decisions and they seem to like funding cuts. Then as usual, we the frontline staff, get all the hate mail, abuse, verbal assaults and more from both our management AND the public. We get it from both directions top down and from outside.

Like Brendan says, we do these jobs because we care, we believe in creating a civil society. We are dedicated even though we face daily challenges and abuse I never saw or have yet to see in the private sector. I am paid to take the abuse, but don’t think for a minute that it doesn’t eventually take it’s toll on me and my family. My family says to fight back; they don’t understand that as public servants we cannot so that. We are the peacemakers in the arguments from the public.

You try our jobs for week- try walking alone into rat and cockroach infested homes not knowing who will be answering the door or how violent or high they could be; try working in Seaton House for 1 night; or watch the elderly languish in homes for aged without family visiting them and feel our pain of knowing we are the only highlight of their day because their family couldn’t care less about them; try to go home after work wondering if the woman you just interviewed will make it through another night with her abusive partner and what about their children who get to watch it all; try reaching down pick up clutter in our parks wondering if this is the day you will get stabbed by a dirty drug needle.

Yes, we get a decent pay, our benefits and pensions are not as gold-plated as you think. And our monthly pension amount will be reduced by the amount of CPP and OAS we get.

Our unused sick days can be banked, just like your vacation days can be carried over to the next year, but the real reason for sick bank is if we get seriously ill this bank acts in lieu of a short term disability plan until LTD kicks in after 6 months of illness. This sick bank means we do not need to apply for EI, thus leaving the money there for those who need it. But a bad pregnancy or 2 or a serious illness, can eradicate that bank in one swoop and it’s gone forever.

The intent of the sick bank is not to use it, save it for serious illnesses, non WSIB injuries, etc. Try proving that the Hepatitis you just got diagnosed with was work related months after you picked up that dirty needle. Try proving to WSIB that you contracted scabies or lice during one of your home visits to some client or hostel.

I am sorry, but I just couldn’t take anymore of the bashing we, as a whole, are being subjected to.

On day 1 of the strike a previous co-worker of mine was purposely struck by a car while on picket duty. That was day 1 of the strike!! The police have charged many of the public for acts of violence but it seems the media only cares to report about the 1 employee who has been charged. As usual the abuse city employees have to endure never gets reported. Has no one ever questioned why welfare offices have Plexiglas windows between staff and clients? They are not there to make a fashion statement.

All said and done, I would love to go back to work. I love what I do for society and the people I help. And I know it?s a thankless job, but that 1 client every so often that hugs me makes it all worthwhile.
Yet now all this uninformed and unjust lashing out at us makes me wonder why I continue and has me in tears. In my youth, I could have chosen to remain in the private sector, taking it easy and getting merit pay raises and promotions. Yet, due to my civic nature I chose Community Neighbourhood Services and now even if I left because of the myths about public service employees I would never get hired.

And if we get fired, as so many are wishing; enjoy the devastation it will cause to our society. By the way our jobs are much specialised and so are our computer systems. It takes a good year to really learn my job and it changes every time new management comes in or some political leader cuts funding to YOUR programs and services.

Doesn?t anyone remember that Harris was well advised that amalgamation would cost more money to run a city with of a population of 2.6M than 6 cities of smaller population?
And then there was the downloading of costs for the Social Programs to all Ontario Municipalities. Our cities budgets ballooned once this happened and the Province got to say they reduced the deficit by doing so. Yep, they just handed over the debt to our cities and came out looking great. Yet the city has no means of revenue except property taxes. Yet us city employees are the ones being blamed right now; not the poor policy decisons our politicians put into action against all advice to the contrary.

One more thought. Private industry, non unionized: Dentist, lawyer, vet, etc.
No matter where you go, you always end paying the same money. They all belong to the same associations, and all adhere to the “recommended guidelines” for determining rates.
Isn’t this the same thing a union does? We are kind of held at ransome by these people.
I can’t exactly drill my own teeth, have the specialized knowledge to care for animals, nor can I charge people for emailing, faxing, licking an envelope, talking to you on the phone for 30 seconds, charging you to research something I should know because I went to law school, and have been specialized in this area for 20 years, and you are the 1,000,000th person to see me about this issue, but I will “research” it anyway, and charge you.
Sure, free markets you say, but if everyone charges the same amount it is a monopoly.
Where is the governor general when you need her?

The union has reached a new low blocking a private medical transportation company. They have already ruined kids summers, sent death threats, damaged peoples cars, assulted people trying to dump garbage and now they are knowingly putting peoples lives at risk. The sense of entilment of the union workers is infuriateing by blocking a medical transportation company they are basically saying that there demands are more important than the lives of others. I was also infuriated when the head of the indoor workers claimed that she was being treated unfairly because she was a women and that fire fighters and police got a better deal because they are represented by men. It is people like her that give women a bad name. Yes, fireman and police have a better deal maybe it is becuase there is HUGE diffrence between a garbage man or day care worker and a fireman. The most maddening thing about the strike is the patent absurdity of the workers? claims that they are treated ?unfairly? by the city. Employees of the city of Toronto typically earn much, much more than the market value of their work. According to government statistics, the average security guard in Toronto earns $12 per hour, while a ?Security Reception Officer? with the city earns $23.90 per hour. ?Light Duty Cleaners? out in the private sector have an average wage of $11.90 per hour while their counterparts on the city payroll make $21.30 per hour. Cooks for the city make more than double their market value at $25.02 per hour. I have read a number of books by Noam Chomsky but i find the idea that the idea that the economic crisis is made up ignorant. The union?s near-callous disregard for the economic environment the most enraging element of the work action. As the unemployment rate in Toronto hits 9.1 per cent, most of us have friends and relatives who have been laid off. After all, in a survey released this week by Toronto law firm Rubin Thomlinson, 56 per cent of companies reported having recently laid off staff. Most of us worry that our jobs might disappear overnight, leaving us scrambling to pay rent and buy food ? in the same survey, more than half of companies anticipated further staff cuts in the near future. So yeah, during a worldwide economic crisis , it?s kind of annoying to hear union representatives casually dismiss the city?s budget problems as some kind of drummed-up excuse. Also the massive affect this strike is having on tourism is deffinatly not going to help the budget issues of the city. I liked the comparison julie made between sick days and insurance guess what i get 8 sick days you have more then double the sick days so i have no sympathy for union workers everyone works hard and here is alittle secret life is not fair. You want to know why there is hostility towards city workers it is becuase currently they are going out of there way to be a nusance to everyone.

The one pro thing about this garbage strike is that people are finally takeing into acount the amount of waste they produce.